Undisciplinary
Undisciplinary
Good Take/Bad Take: public health vending machines, sports diplomacy & 10,000 steps
What happens when a philosopher extraordinaire joins us to tackle controversial topics and ethical dilemmas? You get a captivating episode of Good Take, Bad Take, featuring our guest, Diego Silva, a senior lecturer in bioethics who brings unique perspectives to light! Join us as we explore the implications of anonymous submissions for the Journal of Controversial Ideas, reflect on how power is taken and consolidated, and analyze how we would handle a situation involving a child damaging property in a supermarket.
But that's just the beginning! We're also diving into the controversy between the Saudi-backed Live golf tour and the PGA, discussing the potential dangers of government involvement in sports. Then, we'll shift gears to examine the ethics of public health vending machines in New York City and challenge the popular notion of taking 10,000 steps a day for health reasons. Don't miss this thought-provoking episode that will leave you questioning the world around you and reconsidering how you approach ethical dilemmas in everyday life.
Undisciplinary - a podcast that talks across the boundaries of history, ethics, and the politics of health.
Follow us on Twitter @undisciplinary_ or email questions for "mailbag episodes" undisciplinarypod@gmail.com
Undisciplinary, is recorded on the unceded lands of the Wathaurong peoples of the Kulin Nation in Geelong and the Gadigal peoples of the Eora Nation in Sydney. We pay our respects to Elders, past and present. Welcome to another instalment of Good Take/ Bad Take. This is a program where we're continually working out what the rules are, but the one that we're flying with this time is that none of us will know anything about what it is that we're going to be coming in with a Good or Bad Take On, and I'm joined with my usual co-host keeping all together. Jane Williams. Jane, how are you going?
Jane:I'm pretty good. Thank you for having me. I'm excited.
Chris:We got some pushback from our Good Takes last time, so Pat McConville didn't like our takes on Bluey.
Jane:You know, he did have some very good points, But you know, That's a good counter example.
Chris:I think we'll mail them all this time because we have brought on an extraordinary guest who is a lecturer, senior lecturer in bioethics, philosopher extraordinaire Diego Silva from Sydney Health Ethics. Diego, welcome.
Diego:Thank you very much. And I'm nothing but a bag full of bad takes. So you know, i can just all put my cards out on the table, just you know, as we begin.
Jane:That's why we asked you.
Chris:I guess an opening question would be, or a plea would be can we have bad takes but not be held accountable for them?
Jane:Well, this does raise the whole thing of the Journal of Controversial Ideas which I just discovered allows for anonymous submissions, which is just a terrible idea. But you know we can't be that.
Chris:Well, that's right. We're going to, i guess, have to to some extent own our Good or Bad takes. But before we get into them, i did want to throw out a ethical dilemma that I had to deal with about a week ago, And because you're both esteemed ethicists and engaged with the public sphere, i'd be interested in how you would have responded to this situation. So set the scene I walk into a major supermarket outlet in Australia Don't want to give them any free advertising, but they are one of the duofili And as I walk in I see two young children standing next to a trolley that say they're about eight and 12. And the standing next to this trolley, which is in the fruit section, next to the watermelons, and their parent is off getting some fruit, and one of the children, the oldest one, the 12 year old, started poking their finger into the watermelon.
Chris:So, jane, you're nodding, you know that feeling of the fling wrap tightly over the flesh of the watermelon and just that irresistible urge to stick the finger in there. Now the parent came back and the kid quickly stopped doing it And then the parent went away And this time the child just grabbed handfuls of the watermelon and started punching their fist into the watermelon. And then the parent came back and they quickly just moved along and looked like a sweet, innocent child. Now I won't tell you what I did until I hear what would you do under those circumstances?
Jane:Nothing.
Diego:I would take the trolley and run over the children. Right, it's a new trolley. Problem is what you're describing.
Jane:Yes.
Chris:Yeah, well, i did, certainly, I did think about that, jane, so you, do nothing Yeah. You don't care for the. You know the rightness of respect for other people's property.
Jane:Oh look, that parent knows that their kid has a huge pain in the ass, because that kid has a huge pain in the ass, and so I just don't feel like it's going to contribute anything useful. What do you think?
Chris:would happen if you went over and told the parent that the child had done this.
Jane:That's a really good question. I don't know, but there are so many things that I would want not to happen that I would rather just not get involved. I don't yet. No, i'm withdrawing from this.
Chris:You're not going to get involved.
Diego:I'm going to recklessly get involved. But does it exceed? the first thing that matters to me is that it was one of the big two supermarkets, That's true. My initial reaction is to say I have very little patience for them, given their profit margins. At the moment, given inflation and everyone struggling to buy food, and they're having record numbers in terms of profit, There's a little part of me that says to hell with content. What the right thing to do is, this is a good thing. We should have children running a market-storing property.
Chris:Yes, this is an anarchic act for this child. Consolidation of power in the supermarket shows.
Diego:Exactly. Power is not given, it's taken by punching watermelons.
Chris:So what I did was I walked up to them and just kept on walking and didn't do anything because.
Chris:I think maybe like what you were suggesting, joan, about bad things that could happen. I don't know what sort of Dennis the Menace kind of film or something. There's some child film. I think it would just get turned around on me like a big six foot three guy coming up to a small child, telling them off and then bursting into tears and saying that they didn't do anything. And then all of a sudden I'm being accused for making a child cry.
Chris:Yes, I just thought it's only a dollar 25 watermelon or whatever it is, so I kept on writing. So there's an example of some hot takes you can expect from the rest of this Now that we're warmed up.
Chris:Let's get into some of these topics that none of us have put much thought to, But I think we're all interested in in different ways. So the first one is earlier this month, New York City has rolled out some new vending machines public health vending machines, the calling them And so this article from CBS New York says that, instead of snacks, a new vending machine in Brooklyn is stocked with naloxone and fentanyl test strips. The potentially life saving products are available for free on the corner of Broadway and Decatur. Don't think I'm pronouncing that right Avenue in Oaksville, Decatur. I know that from the city.
Diego:Where drug?
Chris:overdoses continue to be a problem. Health officials say they are trying. They had to try something different. So the basic idea is that there are these free vending machines and that people can access them to hopefully prevent overdose deaths, of which there were 2668 overdose deaths in 2021, which is quite extraordinary.
Jane:So what do you think are?
Chris:some of the key pushbacks against this.
Jane:So it was interesting to me, the things that are included in the vending machine. So there was naloxone and fentanyl test strips And there were also things about there was safer sniffing kits, safer smoking kits, all sorts of bits and pieces.
Jane:I think it seems like a great thing. It's interesting. They do different things right. Some of them are life saving. Some of them are going to prevent, hopefully, overdoses.
Jane:Although I will also say do people know how to use naloxone? I found out recently that it wears off and sometimes you need to give a second dose. It's not necessarily a one and done thing. It needs quite a lot of supervision because your opioid can last longer than naloxone, which I didn't know And I wouldn't know how to use it or administer it. That said, I'm hoping other people would. I love that it's free, But I also think it's interesting the difference between life saving stuff and harm reduction stuff. I'm a big fan of harm reduction and certainly believe that people are going to do whatever they're going to do, irrespective of the tools available to help them to do it safely. It was interesting to me the sort of not in my backyard or that's not needed here and it's going to bring crime to the area argument, And I guess this is where the Where the difficulty lies. You know, is this public health or is it a sort of? you know, are these activities crimes or are they sort of health behaviors that people do?
Chris:Interesting distinction between crime and health behaviors. Well, I'm just thinking.
Jane:You know this is the commentary from people saying we don't want people doing those bad things in our neighborhoods. You know that kind of trope about bringing crime into the neighborhood.
Diego:Yeah, i'm perfectly fine with this. I actually think it's a good thing. So, like Jane, i think I share the sense that these behaviors drug taking behavior first of all is all drug taking behavior bad. So we might want to be able to have these fentanyl testing kits there. I think it's great to have the sort of life saving, the ability to save life ready at hand I think is a great thing.
Diego:The only thing I would say is kind of user uptake. Is there a sense in which this could, you know, lead people to think that the application is actually easier than it is? So how effective are fentanyl testing kits, for example? So I think that there's sort of questions around that that the article didn't go into and I'd be kind of curious to know more about. But on principle I think it's a great thing. I think that the nimbyism the not in my backyardism, you know I'm not surprised that that's there, but again, i think that that's a position is all this time itself, anytime you try to decriminalize something and treat it in an on we know not only in an on-creme way, but in your health perspective.
Diego:You're going to have that sort of pushback. So I'm kind of not surprised. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a nimbyism.
Chris:Would you be surprised to learn that Rupert Murdoch's New York Post is not favorable of this strategy?
Diego:I'm shocked, shocked, i tell you. So, they ran an article.
Chris:Well, they're more just. They're reporting on the people. Jane, They sort of very neutral journalistic. But no, they, they do report this. An anonymous person, not their journalist, wrote on the ground poor choices. So that I guess you know reflect some of your comments already. So someone graffiti on the ground near the vending machine. Poor choices.
Chris:And then another person saying that that they shouldn't be there and the money should be spent on ambulances. So again, not a fan of prevention, preferring ambulances, i guess, to deal with ODS. But they did in their article. They did interview some, some people And I, you know, i get the impression it was it's more to sort of undermine the program rather than getting user feedback. But one person who they interviewed, who was a user of smoking crack cocaine, said that they felt that crack pipes were too narrow. They were, they prefer to think, a crack pipe, and so there was a sense that it wasn't you know standard materials.
Chris:I don't know how much you can put in to what the New York Post is reporting, But the other thing is that they the uptake has been a lot. There's a lot of people that've been clearing them out So they've been used.
Jane:Okay, well, that's a good thing.
Chris:So good thing.
Diego:Yeah, i mean it'd be interesting to know what you know what data is being taken in addition to it being sort of drawn from the machine. It'd be interesting to see if there is actually a noticeable downtick in terms of people ending up in hospital, in the morgue. Yeah you know in those neighborhoods say so I mean all this, all the all the luck to them.
Chris:Yeah, all right, unanimous.
Jane:Good take.
Chris:Yeah, all right. Well, let's move on then to topic number two. That's a golf set effect.
Diego:That's an excellent golf sound effect. This is a, this is a fancy podcast.
Chris:I'll drop it in there. [golf sound effect and commentary, "oh goodness, wow. Okay, Diego, you're going to have to help us a little bit with this one, because this is an area that you're interested in You mentioned. I know a little bit about it, but the, the live golf tour, has merged with the PGA golf tour. Now, don't turn off yet, don't switch podcasts, something else just yet.
Chris:This gets interesting And we're going to say, we're going to show you why this should be interesting. But so these are two big golf organizations that merge together. Do you want to give us a few more details or a bit of background to this?
Diego:I'll preface all this by saying that I personally don't like golf, but it's a fascinating story and there is an ethics, certainly an ethics component to this and a health component as well. So the live tournament is backed by the Saudi government and was created in the last two years, three years, to be direct competition with the PGA, which is the large American based or international golfing association, a golfing tour. And after much consternation and mud slinging from each organization towards the other, they kiss, made up and decided to join forces and become one large super tour. And the reason that this is really interesting, i guess, is several one. We're seeing a similar situation in the context of soccer or football, where the Saudi back government is paying exorbitant sums of money, like salaries of $100 million per year, $200 million per year sums of money to get players from Europe to leave their teams and play in Saudi Arabia. And underpinning all this is the question of sports and sports washing, the behaviors of governments, the human rights abuses of governments. So this is. We saw this with Qatar in the World Cup in December of last year. There's a long history of sports washing, of governments using sports to play up their sort of popularity in the public. It's not unique to golf states.
Diego:Notice the pun there. I feel very Australian. To execute a pun, we see it all over the world. We see it in Europe, we see it in North America, we certainly see it here in Australia as well, and I think it raises sort of bigger questions around health, well-being and, again, money's ability to use sports to make sins go away. I think is a real question And I think, given the role of sports and society, particularly with kids and younger people as well in terms of eyeballs and money, i think it raises a whole host of really interesting questions therein. So that's the 1692nd summary. Yeah.
Chris:And to give a few more details to that excellent summary. Thank you.
Diego:Dio, thank you.
Chris:You know, sometimes when these controversies come up, we say things like oh well, it's backed by the Saudi government, and then that's footnote or short for human rights abuses and those sorts of things.
Chris:But here as well, there's not only is it just backed by the Saudi government, specifically part of the Saudi's public investment fund, which is the. They've also bought the New Castle Football. New Castle United rugby league fans, Don't worry, It's not the New Castle Knights, It's not the New Castle United Football Club, It would be so random. But and that's specifically been run by Muhammad bin Salman Salman, who goes by the name MBS, who is seen, as you know, very closely linked to the brutal murder of the Washington Post journalist, which drew a whole heap of international outrage at the brutality of that murder and his. These the connections here from US journalists but journalists around the world, which is all seemingly forgotten in. I mean, obviously it's not forgotten. People are bringing this up. We're not the only people bringing it up, But in terms of the merger of these two golfing organisations, that concern a little bit like the concerns, I guess, around Qatar and the human rights abuses in the building of the soccer stadiums and those sorts of things just gets washed away by sport.
Jane:They definitely appeared not to have been meaningful consequences for MBS and his crew. I think this is clear evidence of that.
Diego:I think what's interesting for me is that I think in a way, sports is one of the ultimate trivial pursuits And I think we may have talked about this last time was on the podcast but there's a sense in which nothing hinges on sports. We pursue it as a leisure activity, whether it be passively, as fans, or if we're actually engaging it. I guess it has that physical well-being, physical health element to it. So there's a part of me that feels very the capitalist in me really comes out when it comes to sports. So I'm really in favor of player empowerment. When the LeBron James of the world are making their billion dollars through endorsements and through the salaries through the NBA, i think that's a good thing. I think there should be that in part because nothing really hinges on it.
Diego:What I think is really interesting about this is when it moves into the realm of politics And again I think, this idea of the complexity of effects. So I guess what I mean by that is can you point to a deleterious effect from live golf tour joining up with the PGA?
Jane:No.
Diego:Can you point directly in a simple, linear causal chain The fact that Cristiano Ronaldo is playing for a team in Saudi Arabia? of course not, and so in a way it follows this pattern of empowerment, and again it's of leisure activity. So why shouldn't it be subject to the broad capitalist strokes that we're commonly used to? But I think therein lies its seduction, that it's so easy to pretend that it doesn't have political ramifications, that it doesn't have these ethical ramifications. That, i think, makes it again so easy to fall between the cracks. And I think therein lies its power is in making it easy to brush away the bad stuff And I say this somewhat absolutely guilty by giving them my eyeballs.
Diego:When it comes to particularly soccer, it's hard not to watch soccer and think of not just Qatar, but just in terms of the outrageous sums of money where that money is coming from, not just in the case of Newcastle poor Jordies are now getting it But in terms of even going back 20 years ago to Bromovich taking on Chelsea Football Club, and even before that. So I think and again this history goes 100 years in the past Very interesting stories about Franco in Spain using Real Madrid to cover over or becomes the general's team. So there's all these stories in soccer and other sports. I guess the scale of it now is the other thing. That's kind of unique. We're talking about scales that I think are not something that we've seen in the past, and there's no sense in which this is sort of fair, complete, and to what extent, i guess, as a fan, do I have an obligation to stop watching this? And again, in the case of golf it's easy, i never watch it, but in the case of soccer it really hits home.
Chris:Yeah, i think something else that I think and I think this is that we sort of touched on when you're on here last about sport is the way that it is, particularly from sort of the way nerds end up being in universities and journalism and those sorts of things. It's sort of disdained and it's not really taken on as a serious thing to consider or to think about, particularly in political and ethical terms.
Chris:I think in doing that we miss not only the enjoyment of it, but we also miss the power and the effects that it has in society. So I think, seeing these kinds of mergers and the huge amounts of money but also then there are many other things that the Saudi government could be investing in Why are they choosing to invest in these sports that are very popular among certain Western demographics in particular, as if sport and golf weren't important ways many business dealings are done particularly when there's a golf obsessed or was a golf obsessed president of the United States I mean Greg Norm and the Australian figure in this is who's very much behind the live camp in this was also very close friends, or his very close friends, with Donald Trump and his own golfing interests.
Jane:One thing I wondered, and I was thinking about the difference between golf and soccer. So the thing that was most interesting to me was that what seemed like a bit of Cloak and Dagger thing that went on with the PGA and live and a lot of PGA players saying what the hell is going on here, how come? we didn't know this, but I guess the different. I wondered if there was a difference because of who follows golf and who follows soccer and the way that. So let's like, i'm just thinking you may need to cut this, chris, because it's a ramble, but I'm thinking about Sunderland, and I only know about Sunderland Football Club because I watched a Netflix documentary about it which was really affecting. It was called Sunderland till I die.
Jane:It's great And it, but it's about the role of a football club in a, in a context where there's not a whole lot going on, basically, and the and the incredibly strong community that is built around football and hopes and dreams and and eventual relegation. Sorry, i've just spoiled it for you, but I wonder if that is different from golf in terms of. So, chris, you raised a really important thing about where, the, where deals are made and so on. You know, like what are we shaping when we've got, when we've got this sort of soft diplomacy going on, like, was there an outrage in the olden days when Abramovich, you know, when we had like Russian oligarchs and that buying football clubs? I don't know, that's a question for you, diego.
Diego:So offhand I would say, probably not nearly the same extent. I think oftentimes the outrage is at a foreigner any foreigner getting their claws on something that is ours in a nationalistic sense. So we see this in terms of Premier League clubs and American owners as well. So there's a sense of nationalism that permeates a lot of these discussions. But I would say that I don't know.
Diego:I mean I would turn the question back to both of you, but I think that there's been a maturity or maturing of sports journalism in the last 10 to 15 years, i think, in part due to the proliferation of different modes of delivering sports journalism, of the rise of the nerd in sports in terms of analytics and stuff like that. That I think exists in a way that hadn't in the past. I think the politics and sports stuff people have been documenting for as long as it's been around, but I think it being in the public sphere in the manner that it is now, i think, or the mainstreaming of these sorts of questions, i think is a more recent thing. So I think that's a good thing. I mean, i think that would be positive.
Chris:I think, to your sort of question as well, jane. There's just been a huge shift and co-option of sports into global capitalism. There's huge amounts of money to be made in investing in these sports, whereas in the past particularly things like football they were clubs. They were literal clubs with members and voting rights of members, based around communities and suburbs And, in Australia, sort of different ethnic groups in relation, to, say, australian rules, football and different inner city teams. But we probably should move on.
Chris:I think Diego's point, though, about the nerds in sports journalism, drawing attention to this, is really important, and some of the comments made by sports journalists around the World Cup in Qatar were quite ethical and sophisticated, and maybe some bioethicists could emulate that when they start thinking about the International Association for Bioethics being held in Qatar. But I think this is the topic we are going to have to return to, all right. So number three Wait, what was our good take on that? I think we all just agreed again that the merger is a highly problematic thing, or not problematic is ethically and politically dangerous and corrupting It would be my take In insidious ways.
Diego:In insidious ways. Yeah, i think that's the. that's the thing for me.
Chris:Yeah.
Diego:Oh Laura, your ball almost hit somebody. Next time make sure you yell for as loud as you can so they know to watch out. That's right, Thank you.
Chris:All right. So the last topic that none of us have given much thought to, but I'm sure we will have unanimous opinions on, is this article that was just recently published today, i think even in the city morning Harold and it is Kerry Sackville, a columnist, reflecting on the need to fulfill her 10,000 steps and can't go to sleep until she does the 10,000 steps because her watch is telling her to do the 10,000 steps. But that also, the whole 10,000 steps thing, is not even based on any research. It's a little bit like the pompadour tomato, in the sense that the 10,000 steps came from Manpou Ki, which is a Japanese character that looks like walking and is also for 10,000. And so that's how the first pedometer was called Manpou Ki, because of that similarity. And so now we have this idea that we, should, you know, have to walk 10,000 steps a day, whereas if the character was 8000, then maybe we just be walking 8000 steps.
Chris:And I say we, I don't do this, but some people do this. So thoughts, I guess, on two things One, the use of these sort of watches and devices to keep track of your movements to then provide some indicator of whether you're being normalized appropriately to those movements, And then just this, I guess funny little tidbit that the whole 10,000 steps thing is bogus anyways.
Jane:So this was not news to me, because there's a great maintenance phase episode on this. Of course there is. So yeah, i knew this, but I do continue to find the attachment to sort of health behaviors like this really, really interesting. You know, we've all got a thing right. Walking a number of steps is not mine, but I definitely know people for whom it's a thing, and I think that the quantification of measures that make us feel good about ourselves is not new, and it's really hard to see how it'll be anything but increasing, given that we just, you know, i'm wearing an Apple Watch. I have no idea about my steps, but yeah, it's a thing. It seems like a huge bummer to me, but then I'm sure a whole lot of things that I do would be huge bums to other people. So you know, it can't be too much.
Chris:What's a bummer? The bummer that the 10,000 steps is a myth or the bummer that people do the 10,000 steps? The bum.
Jane:The idea of walking around the block a couple of times before you go to bed is a bummer. I definitely know people who would And actually, if I may just give a plug to some previous work that I did about hotel quarantine, it was very interesting. Quite a few people mentioned that they had walked 10,000 steps a day in their hotel rooms, which is a very depressing idea, But was tied to some measure of health or well-being that people felt really committed to.
Chris:What about you, Diogo?
Diego:Yeah. So I think it's funny that we're drawn to these kind of simple numbers, but I'm not surprised, you know. I think that it plays out in more troubling ways in other areas than it does, the 10,000 steps. So the key one being or not a key one, but one being sort of BMI as a measure of health. But I think it speaks to the importance of simplicity and messaging. I think it speaks to the fact that you know, we were talking about complexity in the previous sort of segment, the idea that our brains can only sort of compute so much in a short period of time, and I guess, although it's silly, the only, i guess my only defense would be that it gives you a target to work towards And if you don't take it too seriously, and then at the very least it sort of gets you moving. That said, look, it's evidence-based right. So there's a sense in which the number could be absolutely anything, and I guess therein lies the point is that, you know, the idea again is to get people up and moving And there's all sorts of problems with that if we think in terms of who has access to the watches that keep count. So there's justice issues, right, it's easier to walk in certain parts of the city than in others. So I think there are really important justice questions. Who's? you know who's, abiding by the 10,000 step rule? It's probably of a certain socioeconomic class, i'm going to guess that worries about this in the first place.
Diego:And so I think, those justice questions aside, i think it's a silly thing that may have a slight uptake or sort of upside part of me not uptake, so I'm less bothered by it. I guess I just chalk it up to this sort of human nature. I think to Jane's point. We just really like numbers and sort of one-upping ourselves. So I think I just think of myself like in the gym, you know, lifting weights. You know if I, you know if I can lift half a kilogram more on a deadlift, i'm going to be really freaking excited. Is it logical? Hell, no, it's like. You know it's absolutely meaningless, but I will feel really proud. And so I think of it in a sort of similar way. I don't know.
Jane:And I agree, actually, diego. So I have an app where I log that kind of thing. And just this morning I got a thing saying you lifted your strongest, your heaviest ever, blah, blah, blah. And then I got these like animated squiggles. I was a winner this morning. So yeah, i hear you. It's not like I'm immune, you know, we're just laboratory rats.
Diego:It's a button for a pellet, you know.
Chris:Yeah, i don't do any of that. I don't know what you're talking about. On a totally different note, and just to wind things up, i was at the gym the other day, though, and there was somebody on the treadmill running in jeans.
Diego:I did not see that coming. That was quite the curveball, okay.
Chris:And I have no idea why they were running jeans. I wanted to ask them. But you know, again, you know, like the watermelon thing to start off with, i didn't And I can only assume either. Obviously, you know, straight up thing is they just forgot their gym clothes. But we're committed to their workout. But a more exciting hypothesis is that the training for being an undercover cop or some kind, of special service so they're getting used to running in jeans Any other. why would somebody be on the treadmill in jeans?
Diego:I have no idea Again and I'm well not complete. Non sequitur, i remember when I was 13, in grade seven, and we were running track and field against other elementary schools And I was, you know, was waiting to run my 200 meter race and we were waiting for this group of girls to run their heat And this coach says to one of the runners, could you at least give me your jean jacket? And so this girl takes off her jean jacket, gives it to the coach and is running in jeans, in like regular pair of sneakers, while the other seven girls are all, like you know, ready to go And of course, the girl who was in her jeans just beat the hell out of absolutely everyone by like, by, like meters. And it just makes me think that sometimes we put in a lot of emphasis on the equipment that we use when most of us are amateurs and it's not a lick of difference Whether you've got the latest like soccer cleats when you're playing. You know, pick up when you're 40. It's like, does it actually matter?
Chris:Yeah, shani, she had the jean jacket. She'd have the Canadian tuxedo and running track Exactly All right, well, we might lend it there. End of there. Thank you for your good. They're all good tastes. And yeah, shout out to you are now the coast, the coast. The host of the sheep. The sheep podcast is the health ethics podcast.
Diego:I am indeed, yeah, the host of the most.
Chris:Yeah, people can go and hear your well thought out takes, rather than barely barely better than today's, but you know it's entertaining all the same.
Diego:Yeah, thanks for the plug. She research podcast, where we chat with people about their work. So, yeah, check it out.
Chris:See you later.
Jane:So I'm convincing.
Chris:Okay, so welcome to another installment of good take, bad take. I'm getting a call from my mom Bad Thanks.