Undisciplinary
Undisciplinary
Why AHPRA’s IHRA Anti-Semitism Definition Alarms Australian Health Workers
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We talk with Professor Jon Jureidini about why AHPRA’s adoption of the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism alarms many Australian healthcare workers, academics and students. We discuss how a narrow regulatory move can chill speech, fuel vexatious complaints, and sideline collective and intersectional anti-racist strategies in healthcare.
Considering signing the “Joint letter from healthcare workers & those in training to AHPRA regarding adoption of the IHRA definition”.
Things discussed
- IHRA – Working definition of antisemitism
- Eliminating antisemitism in healthcare: Joint statement from Ahpra and the Special Envoy
- Antisemitism case of two NSW nurses
- Fiona Stanley ‘ashamed’ after hospital bearing her name cancelled event featuring Palestinian Australian doctors
- 'I was doxxed': UK doctors welcome BMA protections for criticism of Israel
- Human Rights Commission report Racism@Uni Report
- Jon Jureidini’s advocacy for asylum seekers and Obituary for David Isaacs noting his advocacy for refugees.
Some evidence to support claims made
- Two thirds of Israeli’s believe there are ‘no innocents’ in Gaza.
- Kenneth Stern – ‘I drafted the definition of antisemitism. Rightwing Jews are weaponizing it’
Undisciplinary - a podcast that talks across the boundaries of history, ethics, and the politics of health.
Follow us on Twitter @undisciplinary_ or email questions for "mailbag episodes" undisciplinarypod@gmail.com
Welcome And Acknowledgement
SPEAKER_01Undisciplinary is recorded on the unceded lands of the Wadarong peoples of the Kulin Nation in Geelong and the Gadigal peoples of the Aurora Nation in Sydney. We pay our respects to elders past and present. Medical history has been made and conducted in action. Welcome to Undisciplinary, a podcast where we're talking across the boundaries of history, ethics, and the politics of health. Co-hosted by Chris Mays and Janine Williams.
Why AHPRA Adopts IHRA Definition
SPEAKER_01Okay, so welcome to another episode of Undisciplinary. We are doing things a little bit differently in this episode. We're sort of discussing uh, I guess, an immediate um political concern in relation to healthcare work and healthcare provision here in Australia, um, particularly around uh the uh adoption of the uh IHRA definition of anti-Semitism, or that's the uh International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of anti-Semitism by the uh Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency, which has um caused some controversy and concern among healthcare workers, um, particularly healthcare workers for Palestine, have put out a um open letter. Uh and I'm glad to have with us today uh Professor John Giordini from Adelaide University, uh professor in child psychiatry and uh part of Academics for Palestine, um, to talk with us, and and Jane is here as well. Hi, Jane, uh about uh these matters about the open letter, um and uh particularly yeah to focus on this question of um why is this uh a particular concern? So uh welcome John. Um it's great to have you here.
SPEAKER_02Good to be here, thanks.
SPEAKER_01And I guess just to get basically straight into it, you know, why is um the AHPRAs or APRA, I think is that the way it's sort of spoken, that acronyms, why is this adoption of the definition uh by the IHRA a problem for Australian healthcare workers? I mean, as an academic in in the universities, there's been some debate and controversy around the adoption of this uh definition. Um what's the I guess concern from the perspective of healthcare workers?
The Two Core Problems Identified
SPEAKER_02I think there are two major concerns. One is the um the nature of the definition itself, and the second is the exceptionalism of focusing almost exclusively on anti-Semitism rather than addressing much more broadly all of the equally um unacceptable forms of racism. Um so the definition itself is problematic because it risks um, in the examples that are given as part of the definition, or supplementary to the definition, it risks conflating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. Um and uh so that those are the main problems.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and these are yeah, similar things that have come up in the context of uh the university and academic uh research and and uh student teaching and those sorts of things. So um the I guess why has this uh been adopted? Uh and as you say, I guess in the context of um for several decades now, particularly indigenous organizations calling out um issues of institutional racism within uh Australian healthcare. So on the one hand, yeah, focusing and more attention to racism within healthcare seems to be a really uh important thing to be drawing attention to. But as you say, this um f exclusive focus on anti-Semitism, um, yeah, what what's from you your understanding, what's the origin of this?
SPEAKER_02In that sense, it's such a missed opportunity, isn't it? Because it could be used as a as a springboard for um addressing the broad range of racist um and you know other unacceptable behaviors. Um I think the you know it's a kind of cliche that irritates people, but it's the power of the Israeli lobby that um you know the the APRA and um other regulatory agencies have been bombarded with criticism whenever somebody speaks out. Um and it doesn't have to be anti-Zionist, it can be pro-Palestinian, and it meets the same um uh you know response, negative response, very powerfully coordinated. And and you know, it's so difficult to talk about because the as soon as you start talking about um you know the the influence in the media and so on of Zionist pro-Israeli ideology, you start to sound so much like the you know traditional criticism of Jews as you know um manipulators and and all of the those negative tropes. So you can see why people get anxious about it, um, but instead of being reflective and acknowledging the difficulties of talking in this area, there's a kind of knee-jerk reaction to say we we must we must demonstrate to the world that we're not um anti-Semitic. So there's this kind of overreach of response um that I think is particularly dangerous. And and the other thing is that it almost licenses other kinds of racism. Um you know, the the unless you
Lobbying Pressure And Speaking Anxiety
SPEAKER_02are really clear um that you're condemning anti-Palestinian racism and um anti-Islamic racism, um there's a kind of um, you know, not conscious perhaps, but a tendency to think that you're licensing um other forms of racism.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean I that that anxiety that you mentioned about um talking about these matters is uh or seems to be part of a result of these kinds of definitions, uh, where you mentioned about you know the power of the Israeli lobby to implement this definition, then within that definition it contains uh examples that would suggest that that it's in and of itself is a kind of anti-Semitic trope and remark um to be able to talk about the the reach and power of um of the Israeli lobby. And I think the other confusing thing is on the one hand, with this definition um where it talks about um the relationship between the Jewish people and uh the state of Israel, of conflating that, but then at the same time, um people like Gillian Siegel seem to want to create a very close relationship between the Jewish people and the state of Israel. So it very much snookers snookers you.
SPEAKER_02And you know sorry, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00No, no, no, no, you go ahead, John. I'll pick it up after.
The Nazi Comparison Example Explained
SPEAKER_02One of the um IHR examples is um that uh um uh making comparisons between the Israeli um policy to Nazis. And so um there there's simplifying the the Nazi movement as being entirely defined by killing Jews or torturing Jews. There were a whole range of other people who were tortured and and killed as part of the Nazi regime. So um, you know, Israel doesn't own the victimhood under the Nazis. And it's completely legitimate to compare torture, um, creation of concentration camps, the things that we identify as emblematic of Nazi behavior. Um, this is implemented by Israel. This is a fact, and to be um prevented from making that observation because um, again, there's a possibility that somebody might interpret that if they are so inclined as some kind of backhanded denigration of Jews is just stretching a point for rhetorical purposes and flies in the face of the facts of the terrible things that the Israeli state is doing.
Open Letter And Global Precedents
SPEAKER_01But so recently, so that there has been this um backlash uh or or statement put out by uh healthcare workers for Palestine and the the open letter um uh asking for the minister um to um to sort of intervene or at least to meet with um the minister and to meet with um APRA. Um I was curious when we first set this interview up to talk about precedence in other um countries, and since then um I've seen that the British Medical Association has come out um and denied or or or rejected the adoption of the IHRA definition. Um so I'd be curious to know if there are other similar, I guess, medical jurisdictions like New Zealand, Canada, whether they have adopted it. Um and also I guess, yeah, it's it's good to see that the British Medical Association has uh rejected it.
SPEAKER_02It is really good that the that the British Medical Association have rejected it. I'm sorry, I don't know about those other homework, but um I'm not sure about other um like organizations. Um but the the other thing is that that the British Medical Association is made up of its members, whereas APRA is a regulatory authority. And so um, you know, we people governed by APRA don't have status to rise up and say um you know we don't want this implemented. Um so the the opportunity and I presume that's what happened with the BMA, that people put forward the very obvious and sound arguments against um adopting um that definition because of the um divisiveness of it. And when we're trying to fight racism, the last thing we want to do is be divisive. Um and if you look at the the um the Human Rights Commission um uh exploration of racism in universities, um, a very good report which has demonstrated that um there's anti-Semitism is by no means alone in being problematic in in university life, that um uh First Nations people, um Palestinians or people who identify with the Palestinian cause are just as subject to um unacceptable behavior as uh Jews.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and so I guess I would like to come to that
Colleges, Silence, And Unequal Outrage
SPEAKER_01in a moment. I was also curious to know if there's been any of these kinds of conversations, I guess, in the the colleges, like as the like in terms of I guess member organizations, as has it doesn't sound like from what I've seen, at least in the sort of medical press.
SPEAKER_02I I've been um trying to raise some consciousness about what's happening to Palestinians in the College of Psychiatrists ever since um the um massacres in Gaza began, and um there's not been a single acknowledgement, like you know, when Russia invaded the Ukraine, yeah, um the college was all over it. Yeah, um, but um when it comes to Palestinians, um you know two third apparently two-thirds of Israelis believe that there are no innocent people in Gaza. Yeah. Um so the the um the level of racism um displayed by Israel and Israel's citizens against Palestinians makes our anti-Semitism pale in comparison.
SPEAKER_01Um so with you you were mentioning um you know the racism on university campuses, the Islamophobia that's present, the you know, at times anti-Semitism, the um, you know, uh a variety of kinds of racism, and and generally in anti-racist politics, there's you know a focus on intersectionality to sort of try to develop coalitions to address this. Um but in this context, this is this is singling out, and you know, obviously the horrendous um massacre that happened in Bondi is is a is a large shadow over this in in relation to um the debate about anti-Semitism in Australia and um its presence. But in the context of um healthcare workers, there was that one case in Western Sydney where uh the nurses um I think said something about Israel was it Israeli or did they say Jewish? I can't recall um something about not wanting to treat patients, um, which is obviously horrendous and should be called out um for uh those sorts of that kind of speech and and acts. Um but in the context of healthcare and medical practice, firstly, what kind of evidence, if any, are they drawing on to say that this is an adopt uh a definition that should be adopted? And then I guess on that other side of the coin, how are um pro-Palestine medical and healthcare workers um being treated in this context of, you know, I think examples of people wearing uh watermelons um or or talks cancelled at Fiona Stanley's hospital, that Fiona Stanley herself was supportive of, talks to sort of draw attention to um what's going on in Gaza. Uh so yeah, I'd just be interested to hear, you know, how is this problem being framed, both as a problem of anti-Semitism on the one hand, but then the effects of this on sort of anti-Palestinian racism within the context of healthcare.
Evidence Claims And Anti-Palestinian Racism
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, I think the anti-Palestinian racism racism is endemic, but it's not treated with the same um level of concern as anti-Semitism. The other thing is the kind of conflation of um, you know, um the kind of um anti-Semitism that's completely separate from Israel. Um, you know, the the fictional tropes about Jews and um that but that mostly is associated, has been associated with extreme right-wing fascist um organizations. The conflation of that with the anger that um people feel about what's happening in Palestine that sometimes does genuinely spill over into anti-Semitism. It's not it's understandable that somebody feeling angry about what's being done to Palestinians by Jews, um, but the the only the Jews who are part of the Israeli state, but nevertheless they are Jews who are making these decisions. It's wrong but understandable that that would spill over into anti-Semitic um statements that people might subsequently regret. And to conflate the very um you know um ideological anti-Semitism um that is utterly ununderstand un utterly reprehensible with um almost like unwitting um anti-Semitism. I mean, the reality is that Zionism causes anti-Semitism. The people in reaction to what Israel does um inappropriately but understandably identify that as a problem that is shared by all Jews. They shouldn't, we mustn't do that, but you can see what the what the psychology of that process is. And um and we different approaches are needed to stamp out the two different kinds of anti-Semitism that that we're identifying. Um and um and showing compassion and understanding of the predicament of Palestinian people is part of addressing this kind this kind of anti-Semitism that comes out of anger at what Israel is doing.
SPEAKER_01And I think for perhaps people who are uh newly coming to this topic, I think the other dimension to um the confusion uh around um Israel, uh Jewish identity,
Different Kinds Of Anti-Semitism
SPEAKER_01anti-Semitism is then um what some refer to as Zionist anti-Semitism, which is when organizations like Breaking the Silence or Jewish organizations, Jewish run and led organizations that criticize Israel, um both in Australia and in Israel, when their Jewishness is denied to them by Zionist movements. So, you know, there have been many cases with where Jewish organizations who are joining pro-Palestine protests and criticizing Israel are then themselves being the target and subject of anti-Semitic uh attacks, denying their Jewishness um by Israeli organizations. Um and it's yeah, it's very challenging, I think, for some people to um appreciate all of these different nuances and dynamics in what's going on. Um and especially, I guess, yeah, you go.
SPEAKER_02It takes a huge amount of bravery for a Jewish person to stand up for Palestine and to stand up against Zionism. And uh and people are inevitably hurt in that process. Their families um become divided, um, they're attacked, um, people are shunned in the community. It's an
Zionist Anti-Semitism And Community Costs
SPEAKER_02it's a big thing for somebody who's Jewish to stand up against this um murderous regime.
Arendt, History, And Debate Shutdown
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, even um, you know, uh it's sort of more historical, um, but still very pressing and and um important analyses from people like Hannah Arendt on anti-Semitism um in her book um on totalitarianism. The whole sort of first part of it is about anti-Semitism and it's you know back to this sort of controversial definition, you know, she talks about um anti-Semitism, uh sorry, she talks about Zionism as um so a quote from her saying um the only direct and unadulterated consequence of nineteenth century anti-Semitic movements was not Nazism, but on the contrary and contrary, Zionism, uh, which at least in its Western ideological form was a kind of counter-ideology, the in and she puts it in inverted quotes, the answer to anti-Semitism. So this idea of a separatist political state, um, which then you know she goes on to make a bunch of criticisms of, and then her book on Eichmann in Jerusalem draws a lot of comparisons uh and r roles of uh uh with the Nazis, which would put her foul of this um IHRA definition, which is kind of interesting considering she's considered one of the you know most prominent 20th century uh Jewish intellectuals. Um and so I think cutting off the possibility for these conversations um through this definition seems to be um uh a step backwards from understanding the sort of nuances and complexities of um of what's going on both in the past to get to where we are now, uh, and as as well as in the
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so the the definition is is um so I I see it as an attempt to to shut down um difficult conversations and arguments um that um the the more morally indefensible the Zionist argument becomes, the more need there is to use slogans and um you know um accusations to to shut down the
Vexatious Complaints And Chilling Effects
SPEAKER_02discussion.
SPEAKER_00Is there I was just gonna say, is there is there concern that the adoption um of the definition might lead the way for sort of vexatious complaints or or Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02I mean Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um is that something that's happened already, do you think?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there's or I mean, you know, the the driver for it is vexatious complaints against um or anti-Semitic complaints. Um there's no documentation that I've seen made available of um uh vexatious complaints in the other direction, but I many people have suffered that um experience.
SPEAKER_00Well, I get I I'm yeah, I'm interested in in the sorts of uh uh in the sorts of complaints that might be made in the public to be fair, it's not something I've thought about very much, but the idea of vexatious complaints against healthcare workers that aren't based on care, if you like, but that are based on beliefs, and those might be anti-Semitic, there might be other forms of racism. Um is there a way that those are recorded and collated? Is there reporting on that sort of on complaints that I suppose are vexatious?
SPEAKER_02I mean I think that the the concern that people have is that if they're um wanting to introduce um discussion about the health needs of Palestinians, um that something they say in the course of that discussion might lead to a complaint to APRA. Um with it discussions with individual patients in the discussions in in you know forums within uh within hospitals and so on. That um, you know, um so um you know one thing that um health professionals are called upon to do is to support uh students and others in Gaza um given the collapse of the um health system there or the the destruction of the health system there. Um can we have those kind of conversations? Are those conversations going to be censored in order to explain why um medical students are calling out for support from lecturers overseas? Um we have to talk about the scholasticide and genocide that's happening. Um are we then going to be reported to APRA for making those kind of statements?
SPEAKER_00That's really helpful. Yeah. I hadn't um I hadn't thought about those kinds of forums um that are sort of, I suppose, semi-public, um, but where your colleagues might be reporting you say.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And would other consequences be people like uh Dr. Muhammad uh Mustafa, uh Perth-based doctor, who uh I has gone to Gaza and gone to Palestine to um also uh assist medically over there and then comes back and is obviously very vocal and talks a lot about the uh the the consequence of Israeli destruction of medical infrastructure. Um those kinds of conversations and also even I guess just the practice of going and practicing in um Palestine could be seen uh or construed um vexatious under this definition.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Yeah.
Practical Risks For Clinicians And Teachers
SPEAKER_01Um so from my understanding, um, health workers for Palestine are collating sort of evidence and experiences of anti-Palestinian racism. Um, and that can be uh you can go to their website, we'll share these links. Um, and we'll also share the petition. Um the petition I understand it is for healthcare workers and healthcare um students. Is that correct? Like and that's still open and running? Yes. Great. Um, so yeah, we'll share that um around. I I wanted to ask, I guess, maybe in finishing up, um about your experience in the past. You have been um were were quite vocal uh against uh the government around refugees and offshore uh processing um of uh refugees in Australia, and we had for a time those laws that were going to criminalize medical workers for speaking out about um what was going on in those offshore processing um uh centres and um the late David Isaacs um who uh was very uh supportive and vocal about that. Um I was just curious uh how you think about what's happening now in relation to um those kinds of um politicization of healthcare work uh here in Australia, um, and if there are any I guess lessons or anything to be drawn from those two different contexts?
SPEAKER_02Uh I suppose uh I mean we're we're a racist culture. Are we more racist than other cultures? I'm not sure, but you know, the the anti-Palestinian racism, the dismissal by and large um by our government of of um how badly the Palestinians are being treated, it's of a piece with the way in which we um treat uh asylum seekers um and um you know that coming back to the kind of original point of um if we hadn't if the if the government and other institutions like APRA didn't have such a narrow focus on anti-Semitism, then this would be an opportunity to address those much broader issues of racism that um that belittle or you know m make us smaller as a as a culture and a society.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yeah, I think that's the the the difficulty of this narrowing down um to one particular form of racism which is you know insidious and um and needs to be uh addressed uh just as all these other forms of racism need to be. And and I think like you mentioned um with uh different organizations coming out immediately in support of Ukraine when Russia invaded, I was in
Petition Links, Refugee Parallels, Closing
SPEAKER_01a conversation with a I guess a senior executive at my university um around the time when we had the encampments at the university, and they were sort of saying, Oh, how come these students weren't out doing this for the uh the vote yes referendum and all this sort of stuff? And it's like, you know, well, because our whole university was behind the vote yes, you know, the vice-chancellor had put out all these statements, the vice-chancellor had put out statements about Ukraine, um, whereas the vice-chancellor um was silent on this issue and essentially created a vacuum of silence, um, which then, in that vacuum with no sort of leadership, and not just at my universities, but all these universities, all these major institutions, with a silence there uh that gets very heavy, people start to wonder what can be spoken, and and some people will take advantage of that silence in insidious ways, and others will be trying to find some kind of leadership in that area. So uh appreciate the leadership shown by uh yourself and health workers for Palestine. Um, and I guess just before finishing up, if there's anything you finally want to say or uh point uh listeners in the direction of uh no, I mean thanks for um uh a good conversation.
SPEAKER_02I think it's a a difficult area, and uh I I don't think any of us are positing um simple solutions to complex problems, but um the IHRA definition and the adoption of it is just such a simple solution to a complex problem, and simple solutions to complex problems are almost always wrong.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And I suppose it should also be said that the the the architect of that definition said that it should never be used in this way. Um so that's another, I guess, irony to the whole situation. But um, yeah, thank you very much uh for agreeing to come on and have a chat.
SPEAKER_02Thank you.